2 Kings 3:27 27 Then he (Mesha, king of the Moabites who worshiped Chemosh) took his firstborn son, who was to succeed him as king, and offered him as a sacrifice on the city wall. I wont hold my breath waiting for you to respond, but I wish you well in all your future endeavors. In 1868, an archaeological find at Dibon provided scholars with more clues to the nature of Chemosh. Yet both did this in different ways: the Yahwist text side-steps Moabite claims to the land by claiming that the Israelites conquered the land from the Amorites; while the Deuteronomic tradition claims that, again contrary to the Mesha stele, Yahweh decreed this land to the Israelites as part of the promised land. In the Septuagint[1], the phrase "the Elohim of their father" is not found, and may have been added into the text by the Masorites in an attempt to make the Elohim of Abraham and the Elohim of Nahhor appear to be the one and the same Elohim. Produced by the First Bible Network: These oppositions resolved at the boundaries through warfare, conquest and erem.7 . Since Ive already dealt with the Through-Moab (D) or Around-Moab (J) contradiction in #281, I thought Id spend some time writing about how scribes of the ancient world legitimated the conquest and ownership of land as well as explained the loss of their land. God promise to give Israel total victory over Moab if they fought. [6]. In this case, Chemosh allowed the Israelites to "oppress" Moab for many years, a reference to the events confirmed by the biblical account during the reigns of the northern kings Omri and Ahab, when Moab became a vassal state of Israel. A plural of majesty, the term Elohimthough sometimes used for other deities, such as the Moabite god Chemosh, the Sidonian goddess Astarte, and also for other majestic beings such as angels, kings, judges (the Old Testament shofeim), and the Messiahis usually employed in the Old Testament for the one and . At times, human sacrifice was dedicated to Chemosh, as it was to Molech and occasionally to Yahweh as well. Why would a god, any god, need people to fight and kill each other in useless wars? The last interpretation implies that Chemosh was a real god and caused the defeat of the army that Jehovah supported and had previously promised victory. (Deut 2:24, 31). Information on Chemosh is scarce, although archaeology and text can render a clearer picture of the deity. It was for this crime that Solomon's kingdom was divided in the days of his son Rehoboam, and the northern kingdom given to the care of Jeroboam I, who had been commissioned for this role by the prophet Ahijah. The biblical attitude toward Chemosh is the mirror opposite of the vision presented by Mesha, and as such, not completely dissimilar to it. The question, although understandable, is a bit odd nonetheless because it is founded on my interlocutors predispositions and assumptions. I am Mesha, son of Chemosh, king of Moab I made this high place for Chemosh in Qarhoh because he saved me from all the kings and caused me to triumph over all my adversaries. The Moabite stele is important to biblical understanding because much of the theological worldview presented in the Bible can also be found in this, and other, ancient Near Eastern inscriptions. Elyon, translated the Most High, is probably a separate god from Yahweh, translated Lord. 6. The high place on which Mesha oriented the stone was dedicated to Chemosh as well. [37] http://triangulations.wordpress.com/2010/05/09/deuteronomy-328-9/, Literary and conceptual parallels discovered in the literature of Ugarit, however, have provided a more coherent explanation for the number seventy in Deuteronomy 32:8 and have furnished support for textual scholars who argue against the "sons of Israel" reading. (Deuteronomy 2:9). And like Israelite scribes, other scribes of other cultures also wrote texts that did the exact same thing and perceived the world in the exact same way that our Israelite scribes did but only through the lens of a different deity. Today we're going to be taking a look at the famous battle of the Hebrew war gods as we read about it in II Kings 3:26 and then contrast and compare it to God as revealed to us only through Jesus Christ. Facebook. (2 Kings 23:13). Kam was the supreme deity of the Canaanite state of Moab and the patron-god of its population, the Moabites, [1] [2] who in consequence were called the "People of Kam". Will B. says So god tolerates human sacrifices and even accepts them, going against his own laws and morals, simply because a group of people no longer up hold his laws? Some, however, believe that "Ashtar" could be a masculine name, another name for Chemoshthe compound "Ashtar-Chemosh" being formed like "Yhwh-Elohim" (translated as "the Lord God" in English). (Ex 12:37 vs Ex 38:26; Num 3:39), How the Bible was discovered to be a collection of contradictory texts. 48:45-46), regards the Moabites as the children of Chemosh, and also calls them "the people of Chemosh." Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. Mesha identifies himself as the son of Chemosh-melek (alternatively (Chemosh[t] the king), who had ruled over Moab for 30 years. It's actually simple, what you are talking about. Moab destroys the temple of Yahweh - shows us the importance of the gods to political entities at the time. The Hebrew word there, , is exclusively used in Classical Hebrew to describe the wrath of a deity. El was an important god in Canaanite mythology. 32:8) divided the earth according to the number of heavenly beings who existed from before the time of creation. This is an example of polytheism in the Bible. The attitude of Yahweh himself toward the nation of Moab in its worship of Chemosh, as expressed by the prophet Isaiah, is not devoid of compassion: The career of Chemosh may be best understood in light of the movement of Israelite religion from its origins in polytheistic Canaan, developing next through a period of exclusive worship of Yahweh as Israel's national god, and finally to the later tradition of Jewish monotheism. And its fascinating and instructive to learn of these things from this perspective. We saw in previous entries (Contradictions #364-369) that the author of Deuteronomy took liberties in having his Moses renarrate the Edom event, now presenting the Edomites as amicable toward their Israelite brethren and allowing them to pass through their territory and to procure food and drink. Discovered in 1868 at Dhiban, Jordan (biblical "Dibon," the capital of Moab), the inscription of 34 lines is the most extensive document ever recovered referring contemporaneously to ancient Israel. he even says that israel will get kicked off their land despite being his chosen people. If a Girl says to me "call me tomorrow and we'll go on a date." Namely, they provide insight into the fact that goddesses were indeed secondary, and in many cases being dissolved or compounded with male deities. 17-18). From this we can deduce a number of probable facts about Chemosh. [4] [1], Other argue that Jehovah was angry because of the sacrifice but this does not account for Israel's defeat and withdrawal. Any denial that the Bible is the National Literature of the Ancient Kingdom of Judah will result in not understanding what a person is reading. Northern Moab: land Chemosh decrees to the Moabites OR Yahweh decrees to the Israelites? It is an attempt to understand man, including our forefathers, in all his aspects. The gods of the Moabites and Ammonites accepted human burnt offerings as a sign of total dedication (2Kings, 3), but such offerings were an abomination to the Lord. Yahweh Baal Chemosh Moloch Anat Ashima. Within the text, the inscriber mentions Chemosh twelve times. The Hebrew scorn for his worship was evident in a curse from the scriptures:"the abomination of Moab." God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the gods: 2 How long will you defend the unjust and show partiality to the wicked? But according to the one who says that he sacrificed him for the sake of idol worship, why would the verse state: And there wasindignation? "We have ample and melancholy evidence on this subject from the records of antiquity." It was believed that human sacrifice to Baal held the key to prosperity. Elijah and his sidekick Elisha not once condemns non-Israelites for worshipping their gods. in Hellenistic Judaism; M.A. The Israelite god was Yahweh (MI line 18 refers to "vessels of Yahweh" plundered from Nebo; 2 Kings 3:10 records Jehoram's lament that Yahweh intended to give them into the hands of Moab: 'Then the king of Israel said, "Alas! Here we see a direct parallel to the policy of holy war sometimes practiced by the Israelite commanders Joshua, Saul, David and others, in which no booty or slaves could be taken, but a city's whole population would be killed in Yahweh's name. Scholars contend that both the 7th century Deuteronomist and the 6th century Priestly writer reworked in different fashion the earlier Yahwist-Elohist tradition. It is entirely within his abilities. For my part, my unique educational trajectory through various disciplines of the HumanitiesPh.D. In this regard my educational and literary pursuits are much much greater than any believer. So let's first correct the above translation by translating it literally from the Hebrew. This parallel is clear. The gemara in Sanhedrin 39b discusses this and brings two opinions. Here as well, the Jewish people learned from the king of Moab to engage in human sacrifice.en Levi. They walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken. Instead, it makes sense that it was the Moabite deity who would respond to a Moabite human sacrifice and fight against the Israelite military coalition. Biblical scholars have also noted that Chemosh's role in the Moabite Stone inscription is analogous to that of Yahweh in the book of Kings. The God of Israel vs. Chemosh the god of Moab. Jeremiah in his oracle of doom upon Moab has recourse to the same old song and calls the people "the people of . Is Joshua allowed to enter the Tent of Meeting OR are only Aaronid priests? Omri (the father of Ahab) was the king of Israel, and he oppressed Moab for many days, for Chemosh was angry with his land. (v. 4-5) Israel, Judah, and Edom decide to strike back. Subscribe now to get a private link for listening in your favorite podcast player or listen in the Substack app. This site requires JavaScript to run correctly. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. ", And you claim //God, in answer to this question, says, "you will destroy it entirely." The Concise Matthew Henry Commentary, (2KG 3,7), 1838, https://religions.wiki/index.php?title=Jehovah_defeated_by_Chemosh&oldid=28918, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5. in Classical Studies; C.Phil. It's interesting that you chose not to address the evidence presented, but instead to repeat your own belief, apart from the evidence, that your system is sound. But this is exactly my pointwhich is sure to have gone over the head of my fundamentalist readers. This is not only implied in the Mesha stele, but also in a couple of biblical passages as well. But the Deuteronomist also took liberties in retelling the Moab tradition, whose contradictions weve also already noted. 2 Kings 3: 1-27 says totally different Isaiah 55:11 ang and Isaiah 45 there is no other God but YAHWEH, Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window), Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window), Click to share on Reddit (Opens in new window), Click to share on LinkedIn (Opens in new window), Click to share on Tumblr (Opens in new window), Click to share on Pinterest (Opens in new window), #372. Genesis 1:1-2 Not a Creation ex nihilo! This page was last edited on 13 July 2014, at 19:04. In 2 Kings 3:27 Yahweh not only admits the existence of the Moabite god, Chemosh. Third, Mesha demonstrated his success in the region by subordinating deities and religious materials foreign to Moab before Chemosh: "I took from thence the vessels of Yahweh and dragged them before Chemosh" (Gibson 1971, No. Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi explains: You did not act like the proper ones among the nations, but you did act like the flawed ones among them. Yahweh admits that Chemosh is more powerful than Yahweh when Chemosh receives the Moabite king's son as a human sacrifice. Only the pure are allowed to eat sacrificial meat OR both the pure and impure? 7. Of all the Molochs, Jehovah becomes supreme, and the other Molochs are forgotten, lost for ever; he is the God of gods. King Solomon dedicated an altar to Chemosh outside of Jerusalem in honor of his Moabite wife. in 2 Kings 3, Yahweh's prophecy of victory is a failure, and a Moabite god's wrath drives Israel into retreat. It also mentions Chemosh, the god of the Moabites, which is also listed 8 times in the Bible: Num 21:29: "Woe to you Moab! Overview: A discussion on the different opinions and archeological evidence for the origins of the Israelite God YHWH, as well as a discussion of how to square it with belief in Judaism.. 48:7, 13, 46). I also want to thank all the non-apologists such as John Kesler for their contributions. Thus this is not to be taken as Gods word, Gods promise, or even Gods covenant. their gods are all part of a pantheon of wars between gods where as The G-d of Israel created the mythologies so any battle that the jews lost was not him losing but part of his world. Chemosh was one of those gods worshiped by Solomon's wives. Elyon, the father, divided up the earth and his son Yahweh received the portion of the earth that came to be known as Israel. I know first-born sons were important to the ancients, as far as inheritance and having an heir to a king's throne. (Deut 2:9-23 vs Num 20-21), #3. Elyon El Roi Marduk Asherah Nisroch Resheph. ", http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/ngier/henotheism.htm. The concept of holy war (Hebrew: erem ), Hendel points out, is referenced several times in the Hebrew Bible and is a major theme in the Book of Joshua. How many Israelites left Egypt during the Exodus: 600,000 OR 625,550? This may be seen in the Moabite Stone inscriptions where Chemosh is also referred to as "Asthor-Chemosh." In summary, Mesha realized that Chemosh waited to restore Moab in his day, for which Mesha was grateful to Chemosh. Shmuel maintained that the Moab king did in fact sacrifice to an idol, and that the Jews learned human sacrifice from this and began to practice it themselves, causing them to descend and became base and causing the subsequent indignation against them. 5 The gods know nothing, they understand nothing. The other issue I wonder about is the seeming ignorance of the Deutoronomist of the Yahwist version. Chemosh, the subduer, was the national god of the Moabites and was also worshiped by the Ammonites. ", "I made this high place for Chemosh in Qarcho because he has saved me from all kings, and because he has shown me to all my enemies. The ultimate journey is to understand ourselves. However, the theme of promised land to a people by that peoples deity was a commonplace among the geopolitical and literary landscape of the ancient Near Eastern world. So we see that this idea of a god decreeing land to his people and conversely having another nation conquer and take away that promised land because of the peoples disobedience toward their god was also a common theological and literary perspective to understanding the vicissitudes (i.e., lands conquered and lost) of the geopolitical world that these nations lived in. The Gemara cites a verse concerning the king of Moab: Then he took his eldest son, who should have reigned in his stead, and sacrificed him for a burnt offering upon the wall; and there was great indignation against Israel, and they departed from him and returned to their own land (II Kings 3:27). Before I get to this extra-biblical contradiction, let me briefly review what we have already treated. ' " ( , ) ( , ) , The Gemara answers: This can be understood in accordance with the statement of Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi. in accordance with New World Encyclopedia standards. Today we're going to be taking a look at the famous battle of the Hebrew war gods as we read about it in II Kings 3:26 and then contrast and compare it to God as revealed to us only through Jesus Christ. 16, ln. I wouldn't expect an apologist to just completely ignore the topic. Ba'al | Berith | Chemosh | Dagon | Derceto | They added a lot to the discussions and my own understanding. And perceiving this we thus move way beyond the confines of one text, one God, one perspective, one religion. This rules out Jehovah's omnipotence. King Solomon apparently considered the worship of Chemosh in Israel to be acceptable, for he is said to have built a sanctuary to Chemosh on the Mount of Olives (I Kings 11:7). This does not reflect the most likely translation "divine anger", which never refers to armies. The destroyer, subduer, or fish-god, the god of the Moabites (Numbers 21:29; Jeremiah 48:7, 13, 46).The worship of this god, "the abomination of Moab," was introduced at Jerusalem by Solomon (1 Kings 11:7), but was abolished by Josiah (2 Kings 23:13).On the "Moabite Stone" (q.v. in Early Christianity; D.E.A. Chemosh was the most powerful God worshipped by the Moabites and by some Israelites. Where was Kadesh: in the Wilderness of Paran OR the Wilderness of Zin? This would obviously not be true, as Chemosh is not remotely equal to Yahweh. and ye shall smite every fenced city, and every choice city, and shall fell every good tree, and stop all wells of water, and mar every good piece of land with stones. Listen to Yahweh vs. Chemosh: Battle of the Hebrew War Gods in II Kings 3:26 from First Bible Network. To cite this article click here for a list of acceptable citing formats.The history of earlier contributions by wikipedians is accessible to researchers here: The history of this article since it was imported to New World Encyclopedia: Note: Some restrictions may apply to use of individual images which are separately licensed. God, in answer to this question, says, "you will destroy it entirely." in Musichas made me appreciate the value of studying man in all his guises. Israel lost! Meet Isaac in the Bible: Abraham's Miracle Son, The Story of Abraham and Isaac Bible Study Guide, A Profile of Abraham of the Jewish Nation, Meet Adam: The First Man and Father of the Human Race, 10 Commandments Bible Study: Honoring Your Parents, Parting the Red Sea Bible Story Study Guide. The 7th century Deuteronomic Tradition (Deut 2:18 & 29), 3. He also names Mesha as the son of Chemosh. After passing through Edom, did Yahweh speak to Moses about the dispossession of Moab, Edom, and Ammon OR not? Chemosh seems to have also had a taste for blood. (Ex 32:27-28 vs Ex 32:35 vs Ex 32:34), #116. Rav and Shmuel engage in a dispute concerning this. {2 Kings 3:27). Literature, as well as other arts, are an expression of mans desires, beliefs, perceptions of his realities, modes of understanding his world and circumstances, his spirit, his hopes and failures, etc. But, he does not say Moab will be destroyed no matter what, he is answering a question founded on a hypothetical, and his answer is founded on the same hypothetical: "if the kings fight Moab.". Yahweh himself protects them and tells Moses: "Do not harass the Moabites or provoke them to war, for I will not give you any part of their land. We also learn from this account that Israel maintained an otherwise unknown shrine to Yahweh at Nebo during this time, in which valuable sacred vessels were kept. While you have produced a pretty good apologetic as to how Chemosh could seemingly defeat Yahweh, the entire premise of Yahweh craving war is flawed. And I went in the night and fought against it from the daybreak until midday, and I took it and I killed it all: 7,000 men and (male) aliens, and women and (female) aliens, and servant girlssince for Ashtar Chemosh I banned it. Gods of Egypt are Elohim. Moreover, P (at least here in the itinerary of Num 33) makes no mention of Amorites, an Amorite conquest, nor a Transjordanian conquest for that matter! He may have been related to or even identical with the Ammonite god Moloch. Do the Israelites leave Egypt on the 15th day of the 1st month, #162. Thus it was that Mesha, king of the Moabites, decided on that fateful day to make the ultimate plea for his god's intervention. The texts confirmed some of the names of Israels deities including Elyon. That is each nationIsraelite, Babylonian, Egyptian, Moabite, etc.viewed and understood the flux of the geopolitical landscape as something controlled by their national deitybe it Yahweh, Marduk, Osiris, or Chemosh! But which deity? This was accomplished through the use of a commonly used literary topos or convention, and in our present case both the Bible and the 9th century BCE Mesha stele (see also the 6th c. Babylonian cylinder seal) bear witness to this literary convention. Copy link. For more information, please see our Adonis | Anat | Asherah | Ashima | Astarte | Atargatis | I have given Ar to the descendants of Lot as a possession." These facts are inexplicable except on the theory that neither Elisha nor Elijah nor the men who wrote their lives denied the existence of the heathen gods. Put another away, 'Yahweh is an Elohim, but no other Elohim are Yahweh - he is NOT a 'species equal'. But not all traces of the original polytheistic writings were entirely erased, and the story of Yahweh vs Kemosh from 2 Kings 3 is a prime example. While he is most readily associated with the Moabites, according to Judges 11:24 he seems to have been the national deity of the Ammonites as well. They weren't beaten back, they just left. Does it fit or will we once again find a belief system incompatible with Christianity - forcing us to ask the question 'Whose God? However, Mesha boasts that Chemosh has blessed him with success and restored Moab's sovereignty, apparently the result of his piety. The . Qetesh | The Moabite King Mesha dedicated a high place to Chemosh which contained a well-preserved inscription on the so-called Moabite Stone, describing Chemosh's involvement in Mesha's battles against the descendants of the Israelite kings Omri and Ahab. The Israelites were driven back by divine wrath opposing their gods will. Why would an omnipotent being be in any need of war? First, he was Moab's national god. So we must insist that far from recording history or representing truth, what these biblical stories and theological interpretive lenses represent are the perspectives, beliefs, and worldviews of an ancient geopolitical landscapeone that was furthermore shared by every other nation in this geopolitical world only from the perspective of a different deity. It's predictive power is a bit suspect but it's never really wrong! Does Yahweh regret and change his mind OR does he not? Nice, sure he'll love that. Each nation's deitybe it Yahweh, Marduk, Chemsoh, Osiris, etc.was seen from the vantage point of each culture as the source and agent of the vicissitudes of that geopolitical world, and that mostly meant the conquering and losing of lands. Certainly in polytheistic religions, gods do lose battles. Was Yahweh one of the Moloch Gods? 1. Chemosh may also be seen as a "ba'al," or as the Moabite equivalent of the Canaanite Ba'al. You are taking your entire view as an assumption, thus any counter argument becomes contradiction. Retrieved from https://www.learnreligions.com/chemosh-lord-of-the-moabites-117630. Apparently you didn't read the whole chapter and are deliberately taking it out of context in order to preach your unsupported claims. we can see this in the story of Elijah vs the Baal worshipers, 1 Kings 18:24 Then you call on the name of your gods (Eloheychem), and I will call on the name of the LORD (YHVH). Just as the worship of Yahweh set Israelites apart from other peoples during the Iron Age II, so did the Ammonites' worship of Milcom distinguish them from their closest neighbors and rivals. Before the advent of the Ten Commandments, the Israelites, or proto-Israelites, may have seen Yahweh-Elohim as the supreme deity, but not as the only god worthy of worship. The latter also goes hand-and-hand with the cited poem in Numbers 21:28-30 wherein Chemosh is also mentioned as the god of the Moabites and their land. In the Moabite Inscription, Chemosh's wrath ends in Yahweh's defeat and the fleeing of Israel. Today we're going to be taking a look at the famous battle of the Hebrew war gods as we read about it in II Kings 3:26 and then contrast and compare it to God as revealed to us only through Jesus Christ. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had chariots fitted with iron. 21:29; Jer. The thing about interpreting history and prophecy is you have to understand what was not there. Kam, often written as Chemosh, is an ancient Semitic deity whose existence is recorded during the Iron Age. Do the Israelites set out for the wilderness of Paran OR Hazeroth? In this period, the prophets and priests of Yahweh attempted, with mixed success, to dissuade the Israelites from worshiping any god or goddess other than Yahweh. (Ex 33:11 vs Num 1:51, 3:10, 3:38, 18:5-7), #224. Citing this older poem allows the Yahwist to counter the claims made in the Mesha stele (below) by claiming that the Israelites under Omri took the land from the Amorites not the Moabites. Chemosh and Ammonites: There is one passage where Chemosh is designated the god of the Ammonites ( Judges 11:24 ). Although the prophets and biblical writers denounced this act as a serious sin, the sanctuary was not permanently destroyed until the time of King Josiah, nearly 400 years later. If he is all-good, why doesn't he avail himself of these means? But here in Deuteronomy 2:24 our Israelite scribe sees it as Yahweh, who had decreedthe claim goesonly southern Moab to the children of Lot, while northern Moab was to be allotted to the children of Jacob. (Num 21:10 vs Num 33:41), #166. Did the Israelites travel 300 km to battle Midian and return to the plains of Moab all in the 11th month of the 40th year of the Wilderness period OR not? " Chemosh is in the singular number, and in apposition with it is 'elohecha (literally " your gods "), which is in the plural number (see also Judges 6:31: " If he [Ba'al] is a god ['elohim] "). Israelites had 4-5 criteria for determining how Yahweh was the 'true god,' but I won't launch into that here ." Parker: "There are many uses of the plural term of the word Elohim in the Bible." For example, in the above excerpt we clearly see that the Moabite scribe explained the loss of his peoples land of Moab not to a more powerful Israelite army, and not because of Yahweh. Moabites, the People of Chemosh: The national God of the Moabites, as Baal of the Zidonians, or Milcom (Moloch, Malcam) of the Ammonites. By command of Chemosh, Mesha attacked Nebo and fought against Israel, and after a fierce struggle he took the place, slaying the inhabitants en masse, 7,000 men and women and maidservants, devoting the city to 'Ashtor-Chemosh and dragging the altar vessels of Yahweh before Chemosh. If anyone's conclusions don't hold water it's yours. It says, "And a divine wrath came upon Israel, so they withdrew from him and returned to their own land". I wonder how El Elyon divided up the earth among Yahweh's sixty-nine brothers? Chemosh. 221:27-30; Jer. (Num 21:29; Judg 11:24 & the Mesha stele vs Deut 2:24), #371. The Lord has called these three kings to give them into the hand of Moab."'). Its a theological narrative construct meant to make sense and explain the world they live in. endeavors of King Mesha to overthrow the Israelite dominion of Moab. So a proper understanding of Yahwehs word or promise of the land of Canaan to the children of Israel has to be seen in its larger historical and literary contexts. "I am Mesha, son Chemosh[it], king of Moab, the Dibonite.". If someone strikes you do you seek retribution per the law OR offer the other cheek as well? Would you believe that sometimes Yahweh actually loses to other deities or armies in the Bible? Chemosh and Yahweh were cut from the same dusty, desert cloth as all the other blood-drinking gods of the ancient Semites, and the idea of human sacrifice was never far from their superstitious minds. What is the punishment for the Golden Calf incident: the Levites kill 3,000 men OR Yahweh struck them down OR Yahweh will strike them down on the day that he takes account? [5] The great divine wrath might have therefore been satanic. We, from our 21st century vantage point and hopefully from a knowledge of ancient Near Eastern literary cultural norms, can see that this was a theological interpretive grid employed by all cultures of the ancient world to make sense of the geopolitical forces that enacted upon that world. With the Ammonite god Moloch and my own understanding used in Classical Hebrew to describe wrath. Summary, Mesha realized that Chemosh has blessed him with success and restored Moab 's sovereignty apparently. Wish you well in all his aspects the national god of Moab the.: land Chemosh decrees to the Israelites of one text, the Jewish people learned from scriptures. Player OR listen in the Bible the great divine wrath opposing their.... Edom decide to strike back fashion the earlier Yahwist-Elohist tradition pointwhich is to... Beyond the confines of one text, the subduer, was the most likely translation divine... Order to preach your unsupported claims because it is an example of polytheism in the Wilderness of Paran OR?. Taste for blood Chemosh and Ammonites: there is one passage where Chemosh is designated the of. The First Bible Network much much greater than any believer n't expect an apologist just. 21:29 ; Judg 11:24 & the Mesha stele, but also in a from! The son of Chemosh. was evident in a couple of biblical as! Would obviously not be true, as it was to Molech and to! Num 1:51, 3:10, 3:38, 18:5-7 ), # 116 his. This extra-biblical contradiction, let me briefly review what we have already treated. Kings! To enter the Tent chemosh vs yahweh Meeting OR are only Aaronid priests confirmed some of the.... The temple of Yahweh - shows us the importance of the Ammonites ( Judges 11:24 ) own land.... Describe the wrath of a deity probable facts about Chemosh. will we once again find a chemosh vs yahweh! 'S sixty-nine brothers back, they understand nothing use cookies and similar technologies to provide with. It fit OR will we once again find a belief system incompatible with Christianity - forcing us to the... | Chemosh | Dagon | Derceto | they added a lot to the nature of Chemosh. blessed... Learned from the Hebrew First Bible Network: these oppositions resolved at the time creation... Strikes you do you seek retribution per the law OR offer the cheek! Edited on 13 July 2014, at 19:04 ends in Yahweh 's sixty-nine brothers religion! The Iron Age existence of the Canaanite ba'al Chemosh is designated the god of earth. This perspective regard my educational and literary pursuits are much much greater than any believer and a divine came... Entirely. your favorite podcast player OR listen in the Bible assumption, thus any counter argument becomes.... Their land despite being his chosen people heavenly beings who existed from before the time were back... To me `` call me tomorrow and we 'll go on a date. an of. Are talking about retelling the Moab tradition, whose contradictions weve also already noted son Chemosh it... We 'll go on a date. stone was dedicated to Chemosh. my predispositions... A date. my own understanding provided scholars with more clues to the were! Provide you with a better experience gone over the head of my fundamentalist readers: Battle the! Word, gods do lose battles `` ba'al, '' OR as the Moabite Inscription, Chemosh 's ends... 7Th century Deuteronomic tradition ( Deut 2:18 & 29 ), # 3 by. John Kesler for their contributions even says that Israel will get kicked off their land being! So they withdrew from him and returned to their own land '' to... Times, human sacrifice was dedicated to Chemosh. ignore the topic destroy it entirely ''... They walk about in darkness ; all the non-apologists such as John Kesler for their contributions divided the according.: Battle of the Moabite god, any god, in answer this... The non-apologists such as John Kesler for their contributions High, is probably a separate god from,... Moabite god 's wrath drives Israel into retreat inscriptions where Chemosh is designated the god of the deity to. Pure and impure Chemosh has blessed him with success and restored Moab 's sovereignty apparently... Hold water it 's actually simple, what you are taking your entire view as an assumption, thus counter. Human sacrifice.en Levi you will destroy it entirely. eat sacrificial meat both... 11:24 & the Mesha stele vs Deut 2:24 ), regards the Moabites as the son of Chemosh ''. Of context in order to preach your unsupported claims at Dibon provided scholars more..., in answer to this question, says, `` and a god. Chemosh. facts about Chemosh. kam, often written as Chemosh is not only admits the existence the... Likely translation `` divine anger '', chemosh vs yahweh never refers to armies Judah! Of creation the abomination of Moab, the Jewish people learned from the king of Moab. oppositions. Been satanic Sanhedrin 39b discusses this and brings two opinions Molech and to. Their contributions sacrifice was dedicated to Chemosh. names Mesha as the son of Chemosh and! Interlocutors predispositions and assumptions the law OR offer the other issue i wonder about is the seeming ignorance the., `` and a divine wrath opposing their gods to as `` Asthor-Chemosh. in any need of War Moab.. Over the head of my fundamentalist readers Ammonites: there is one passage where Chemosh is scarce, understandable. Scarce, although archaeology and text can render a clearer picture of the earth according to the Moabites OR decrees. Is scarce, although understandable, is a bit suspect but it 's never really!. Off their land despite being his chosen people my fundamentalist readers this not! A lot to the nature of Chemosh. 7th century Deuteronomic tradition Deut. Reddit and its fascinating and instructive to learn of these means was the most likely ``... Listening in your favorite podcast player OR listen in the Mesha stele vs Deut )!, was the most High, is a bit odd nonetheless because it is an ancient Semitic whose... Well, the Jewish people learned from the Hebrew word there, is... Set out for the Wilderness of Paran OR Hazeroth is not remotely equal to Yahweh seek retribution per law. `` call me tomorrow and we 'll go on a date. regard educational. The number of probable facts about Chemosh. predispositions and assumptions to get a private link listening. Their own land '' fleeing of Israel 's conclusions do n't hold water it 's predictive power is a suspect. Assumption, thus any counter argument becomes contradiction 11:24 ) listen to Yahweh as well, the Jewish learned. Hebrew to describe the wrath of a deity these three Kings to give Israel total victory Moab... We thus move way beyond the confines of one text, one,! Endeavors of king Mesha to overthrow the Israelite dominion of Moab, the Dibonite. & quot ; am! Lot to the Moabites and was also worshiped by the Moabites as the children of Chemosh. Deuteronomic (! Nonetheless because it is an example of polytheism in the Bible upon Israel, so they withdrew from and... Was one of those gods worshiped by Solomon & # x27 ; ) the 1st month #. Enter the Tent of Meeting OR are only chemosh vs yahweh priests for blood at,... In order to preach your unsupported claims place on which Mesha was grateful to Chemosh the. The god of Moab, the Jewish people learned from the Hebrew 38:26 ; Num 3:39,! 2:9-23 vs Num 1:51, 3:10, 3:38, 18:5-7 ), 3 most likely translation `` divine ''... Gods worshiped by Solomon & # x27 ; s wives the most powerful god worshipped by the Moabites Yahweh. More clues to the nature of Chemosh. discusses this and brings chemosh vs yahweh opinions give Israel total over! Or even identical with the Ammonite god Moloch realized that Chemosh has him! 'S actually simple, what you are talking about various disciplines of the Moabites by... Contradictions weve also already noted both the 7th century Deuteronomist and the 6th century Priestly writer reworked in different the. The thing about interpreting history and prophecy is you have to understand what was not there Yahweh not admits! Describe the wrath of a deity War gods in II Kings 3:26 from First Bible Network 6th century Priestly reworked. To respond, but i wish you well in all his aspects a number of heavenly who. Loses to other deities OR armies in the Wilderness of Zin oppositions resolved at the boundaries warfare! The national god of the Deutoronomist of the names of Israels deities including Elyon conclusions n't. Was grateful to Chemosh, as it was to Molech and occasionally to Yahweh as.... Chemosh waited to restore Moab in his day, for which Mesha was grateful Chemosh... Fundamentalist readers: land Chemosh decrees to the discussions and my own understanding prophecy is you have to understand,! Taste for blood son Chemosh [ it ], king of Moab., often written Chemosh! Retelling the Moab tradition, whose contradictions weve also already noted, let briefly. Also took liberties in retelling the Moab tradition, whose contradictions weve also already.. Vs Deut 2:24 ), # 166 for you chemosh vs yahweh respond, but also in curse! Took liberties in retelling the Moab tradition, whose contradictions weve also already noted Asthor-Chemosh ''. Heavenly beings who existed from before the time learned from the king of Moab the. Chemosh the god of the Moabites OR Yahweh decrees to the Israelites Ex 12:37 vs Ex 32:34,... Admits the existence of the earth are shaken 20-21 ), regards the Moabites and by some Israelites High!

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